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WW2 Decoy sites
- Linton Lad
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02 Jun 2012 09:38 #111
by Linton Lad
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Replied by Linton Lad on topic WW2 Decoy sites
so it be like open areas that were bomb on purpose to fool the enemy
thanks rich
thanks rich
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- a10694
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02 Jun 2012 19:31 #112
by a10694
Replied by a10694 on topic WW2 Decoy sites
I may have asked this before, but on the attached photo (above) in the thread, within the red coffin shaped area are:
1/. A three pointed star of "something"
2/. A line of "something" similar to the "something" in 1/. !
3/. A roadway and some buildings.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to what they are, they are on a decoy site (Wallasey) ?
I've racked my brain, have not seen anything similar anywhere else, and it does not represent any structure in the area.
1/. A three pointed star of "something"
2/. A line of "something" similar to the "something" in 1/. !
3/. A roadway and some buildings.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to what they are, they are on a decoy site (Wallasey) ?
I've racked my brain, have not seen anything similar anywhere else, and it does not represent any structure in the area.
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- PETERTHEEATER
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03 Jun 2012 04:31 #113
by PETERTHEEATER
Replied by PETERTHEEATER on topic WW2 Decoy sites
As I think you know the main element of Starfish sites was fire and the equipment had to be capable of being lit quickly and then 'grow' and maintain the ground fire before the arrival of enemy bombers. Since Starfish were intended to protect cities, if the image in Post 84 is the Wallsey site then I would expect it to have some features to simulate either Birkenhead or Liverpool Docks.
Groups of 'fires' were often surrounded by a perimeter trench as a fire-break an this can show as geometrical shapes on vertical air photos. I assume that some of the clusters are basket fires and oil fires which required a lot of fuel for sustained operation. Bringing that in by tanker would need a hard surface road.
Groups of 'fires' were often surrounded by a perimeter trench as a fire-break an this can show as geometrical shapes on vertical air photos. I assume that some of the clusters are basket fires and oil fires which required a lot of fuel for sustained operation. Bringing that in by tanker would need a hard surface road.
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- CornwallPhil
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03 Jun 2012 14:33 #114
by CornwallPhil
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- Linton Lad
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03 Jun 2012 19:27 #115
by Linton Lad
Many thanks from linton lad
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Replied by Linton Lad on topic WW2 Decoy sites
i see what you mean now. very good and impressive
thanks rich
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04 Jun 2012 17:15 #116
by a10694
Replied by a10694 on topic WW2 Decoy sites
I have a wide experience of most types of decoy sites, but cannot recall anything like the star arrangement at Wallasey. Neither can I think of anything local that it would be decoying, either in Wallasey, or Liverpool.
The only structure I can think of is in the center of the photograph below of Formby Decoy, assuming that the star shaped item at Wallasey Decoy was some sort of vertical guyed tower. The tall structure in the photograph is what was known as the "Formby Light", which was a nautical navigation beacon, in the middle of the decoy site at Formby.
The (tenuous) connection is that it was taken down, soon after the RAF photograph, because it was (quote) attracting the Luftwaffe bombers. (wasn't that what the decoy was for??). I propose that the Formby Light was taken down at Formby (eastern side of the Mersey Estuary), and a similar type of structure erected on the Wallasey Decoy (further west on the Wirral), and which was in the usual approach direction of the bombers for Liverpool, hence attempting to fool the bombers that they were over Liverpool, when they were in fact over the Wirral.
Quote (Formby Lighthouse by Reg York - 27 February 2010) : "The old Lighthouse then referred to as the “Methuselah of local nautical structures” was finally demolished in 1941 following the May Blitz on Liverpool when it was thought that German bombers were using it as a useful beacon to Merseyside."
This photo (copyright NMR) is also pretty good for showing what a real decoy fire site actually looked like with the groups of baskets, tanks of oil and water on legs etc.
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The only structure I can think of is in the center of the photograph below of Formby Decoy, assuming that the star shaped item at Wallasey Decoy was some sort of vertical guyed tower. The tall structure in the photograph is what was known as the "Formby Light", which was a nautical navigation beacon, in the middle of the decoy site at Formby.
The (tenuous) connection is that it was taken down, soon after the RAF photograph, because it was (quote) attracting the Luftwaffe bombers. (wasn't that what the decoy was for??). I propose that the Formby Light was taken down at Formby (eastern side of the Mersey Estuary), and a similar type of structure erected on the Wallasey Decoy (further west on the Wirral), and which was in the usual approach direction of the bombers for Liverpool, hence attempting to fool the bombers that they were over Liverpool, when they were in fact over the Wirral.
Quote (Formby Lighthouse by Reg York - 27 February 2010) : "The old Lighthouse then referred to as the “Methuselah of local nautical structures” was finally demolished in 1941 following the May Blitz on Liverpool when it was thought that German bombers were using it as a useful beacon to Merseyside."
This photo (copyright NMR) is also pretty good for showing what a real decoy fire site actually looked like with the groups of baskets, tanks of oil and water on legs etc.
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- mbriscoe
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27 Jun 2012 16:00 #117
by mbriscoe
Replied by mbriscoe on topic WW2 Decoy sites
Royal Air Force Beam Benders: 80 (Signals) Wing 1940-1945 is worth a read, I think there is one chapter on the decoy sites which were all part of the same operation.
We managed to find the control bunker for local Lundy decoy site. All that can be seen on the site are some of the shapes of the bunds in the ground which is what I first spotted some years ago. All the aerial images are quite poor quality and don't show much. A free booklet has been produced local but it insists on calling it a dummy factory with an artist's impression of a large building. I have given up trying to point out that it is wrong! There was another near Kinlochleven but never found any trace, there is a modern picnic site with the road looping around. I think I can see something similar on aerial images but it is not very clear. There is no sign of a control bunker so perhaps lost with road alterations or non standard (or not found yet!).
The thing that puzzles me with the Lundy site is that it was a decoy for the aluminium smelter. The porridge pipes down the hill where camouflaged with netting (there is a painting showing this in the online IWM Colleection). I would logically think that they would have built a dummy pipeline down to the decoy site as that would what any attacking pilots would be looking for. A crude wooden structure would have been enough to give the impression of pipes but no one has ever mentioned seeing anything.
MB
We managed to find the control bunker for local Lundy decoy site. All that can be seen on the site are some of the shapes of the bunds in the ground which is what I first spotted some years ago. All the aerial images are quite poor quality and don't show much. A free booklet has been produced local but it insists on calling it a dummy factory with an artist's impression of a large building. I have given up trying to point out that it is wrong! There was another near Kinlochleven but never found any trace, there is a modern picnic site with the road looping around. I think I can see something similar on aerial images but it is not very clear. There is no sign of a control bunker so perhaps lost with road alterations or non standard (or not found yet!).
The thing that puzzles me with the Lundy site is that it was a decoy for the aluminium smelter. The porridge pipes down the hill where camouflaged with netting (there is a painting showing this in the online IWM Colleection). I would logically think that they would have built a dummy pipeline down to the decoy site as that would what any attacking pilots would be looking for. A crude wooden structure would have been enough to give the impression of pipes but no one has ever mentioned seeing anything.
MB
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- Peter Kirk
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27 Jun 2012 18:59 #118
by Peter Kirk
No Amount Of Evidence Will Ever Persuade An Idiot (probably not Mark Twain)
Replied by Peter Kirk on topic WW2 Decoy sites
I suspect even dummy pipes would have been a major undertaking. It is an imposing site, or was when I walked past it in th mid 1970s.
No Amount Of Evidence Will Ever Persuade An Idiot (probably not Mark Twain)
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27 Jun 2012 19:03 #119
by Peter Kirk
No Amount Of Evidence Will Ever Persuade An Idiot (probably not Mark Twain)
Replied by Peter Kirk on topic WW2 Decoy sites
I thought I'd replied to the Formby photo a while back! It's a cracking shot. I'm surprised as to how un-obvious it is.
No Amount Of Evidence Will Ever Persuade An Idiot (probably not Mark Twain)
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- mbriscoe
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27 Jun 2012 19:05 #120
by mbriscoe
All that would be needed is something to catch the light on a moonlit night. They could be even be devious and put up camouflage nets down the hill like the real site and just have a small section of dummy pipe exposed.
MB
Replied by mbriscoe on topic WW2 Decoy sites
I suspect even dummy pipes would have been a major undertaking. It is an imposing site, or was when I walked past it in th mid 1970s.
All that would be needed is something to catch the light on a moonlit night. They could be even be devious and put up camouflage nets down the hill like the real site and just have a small section of dummy pipe exposed.
MB
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